Wednesday, April 11, 2012

What to do with all the money?

I wanted to prove that one can survive in the "harsh" world of EVE. After earning 7B in my very first two months, we can consider it done. The fact that "the last 365 days saw 1.12 million market transactions involving PLEX" means that there are at least 100K M&S in the game (out of 350K) who run out of ISK on the monthly basis due to constantly spending/losing more than they earn, despite it's damn easy to earn money.

So the original ideas of "EVE is easy if you are not M&S" and "there are lot of M&S in EVE" are proved. However the cursed "fun" concept is still there to save them. It seems like an unfalsifiable way for them to ignore every proof and remain M&S. It says "what I do is fun and I play for fun, so I do it right, while you are a no-lifer lol". Since the canon says that "fun is subjective", he is free to claim that whatever he is doing - or rather happening to him - is fun, therefore he is "winning EVE". Running missions for crappy income is fun. Wandering aimlessly in lowsec attacking random people and finally getting blown up is fun too. Having "awsome itemz" is fun too. On the other hand I only have pixel numbers which are not fun. Nullsec sov? That's boring too. Everything that is objectively measurable is by definition boring, making sure that the fact that he suck in the game doesn't affect the statement that he and his equally terrible friends are great and everyone who is not them is a no-lifer. The "fun" concept also makes non-M&S socials say "yes they aren't really good but they have different priorities so we shouldn't judge them".

I keep deleting annoying amount of troll comments asking "what will u do with that ISK? u just grind and cant have no fun lol". I start to recognize that it's not trolling, human beings really believe that performing well and gaining the "scores" of the game is not fun and the proper way to play. They also really can't see that fooling around is ... fooling around.

If I want to reach the salvagable socials, the ones who are not incompetent, yet not rich either and torn between being effective and "have fun lol". They are locked by the axiom that for a social person being liked and respected by peers is important, therefore if his friends are claiming X fun, he can't just tell "you are idiots and you suck". Since the M&S is very vocal about his fun concept, even if they are a minority in ones circles, their opinion will be the standard, and the salvagable social will suffer serious peer pressure to conform to their idiocy and also boost them when they are "unlucky".

However there are a loophole in this system. "pwning" peers is by definition "fun" and "being pwned" is not, the opposite, it's "tears". It comes from the ape-subroutines as among apes the strongest one (who pwns) have access to sex while the others do not. This is where the sexual phrases describing competition come from (like "e-peen", "he is fucked", "sucker"). So if one is "pwned", he can't claim that he had fun. It's different from "good fight" when he had a chance to win. If you "pwn" you are the winner and no social person questions that.

So to prove without question that the objective-oriented, a-social "goblinish" approach is the way to win, I must pwn them. Great. I sound like a Goon now. Actually I understand them and my resentment towards them decreased some. Not much since their actions are for fun too. They convey no message besides "we are great and pubbies suck". Neither the victim, nor the observers can learn anything from Goon pwnage.

However there is a problem with "proving via pwning": pointless griefing is pointless, therefore totally ungoblinish. Doing the opposite of what I preach would prove no point. Also because it's the opposite of what I believe in, I hate it and would hate every second spent ganking. I'm devoted to my beliefs but I'm not a saint to sacrifice great portion of my time suffering for them.

How to solve this puzzle then? How to "pwn" without actually doing it?

There is a ship which is "pwning" in itself. One that makes or breaks the epic 1000+ battles. One that blaps (oneshots) other ships. One whose demise make it into the news and make the the ones killed it heroes. The titan.

So, to prove that the best way to "win" EVE is being a ruthless, a-social businessman is to pilot a titan. Of course it will need me to join a nullsec alliance. I will have months to find one. Also by "pwning" in a titan, I'm not pointlessly ganking random people which I despise, but helping an alliance that is more goblinish (even if just marginally) than the one we go to war with.

How will I do it? I earned 2.5B last week. 2 in the previous and 1.5 the one before. See the tendency? If I can keep it this way, I'll have over a trillion before my first birthday. Even if I flat out at 5B/week, I'll have 250B. So I can easily give the alliance the money needed to build the titan I'll pilot, and can help haul the materials too. So their fleet would gain a free titan. Of course it won't be on the first day. I'll join long before I can fly one and fly with them as Basilisk/Guardian/Rhea/Orca pilot. We have to learn each other, making sure that our aims can be aligned. For example I wouldn't mind having a fully tanked, low DPS titan sent into the front line, even if I lose it if it brings us a victory. If you remember the "250-1000B" part, it's way within "don't fly what you can't replace". However I would very much mind being asked to camp some gate and pop random lost people or asked for my phone number to be called when not playing. RL > game.

Titans can't be docked so you can't leave them. You can only put them to safety by logging out. So you need a separate titan pilot character. Also lot of skill points are needed even to sit into the empty hull and lot of more to effectively fly it. An alt learning it would kill the improvement of my main, so I started a third account. It's trial currently, learning Cybernetics 4 at the moment. I have 21 days to change my mind, so if you see some obstacle ahead of my plan, don't hesitate to comment.

I created the account using "invite a buddy" so I get a free PLEX after activating it with a PLEX. I read the EULA, and found no problem using the "invite a buddy" promotion for your own account, but if I missed something, please inform me, I won't risk ban for lousy half B. Obviously I'll pay for that account only with PLEX.

I keep documenting my "titanic" path along with my main and the 3 alts on the second account making even more ISK. I hope many of you will get the taste of trading. The ultimate proof would be not that I can drive a titan by trading (that could be explained by me being way above average). It would be that most people who go the goblin way would end up in a titan, a supercarrier, or with a stable of battleships and strategic cruisers.

One question: which titan? My favorite is the Ragnarok due to it's being least popular, so probably will get a buff soon ("741 active characters in a titan: Erebus 300, Avatar 257, Leviathan 98, Ragnarok 86.") and has a great "7.5% reduction in gang members’ signature radius per level" bonus what would actively help the fleet even with low skills. I know other titans have similar or even better gang bonuses but they don't stack and I'm sure the alliance already have several Erebuses and Avatars.

Business report: Wednesday morning 7.0B (0.1B gifts 3 PLEX behind for second account).

Remember that you can participate in our EVE conversations and very soon group activities on the "goblinworks" channel and your UI suggestions are welcomed.


Kristopher said...

Using buddy promotions is fairly standard practice for defraying new alt account costs.

Not a EULA violation at all.

In fact, CCP recently had a "Power of Two" promotion, which encouraged long time players to use buddy discounts to set up a second account.

Good luck with the Titan ... that is an endgame accomplishment for many players.

( BTW, CCP is considering ending Meta 0 item drops from missions. This will have some serious effects on mineral prices if it happens:


Jason Ambrye said...

You could choose to trade for a more skilled character on the official character bazaar. The rules are in a sticky in that thread, as well as on the wiki here:

No idea about the risk involved, but it could cut some time from getting ready to fly a titan (well).

Gevlon said...

And increase the cost of the pilot 3-5x. No thanks.

IO said...

Training Titan pilot takes 1-2 years. If you will have trillion ISK by then, why not pay 40 bil or so for good titan character? Just add it to Titan price and that's it.

I am sure you will realize that until then ;)

There are 2 limiting resources in game: ISK and time (skills). Any smart person can earn huge amount of ISK, but you are stuck at M&S levels with second resource. The only way to outplay M&S is to use your ISK and buy high-skill character.

After all, only M&S would sell 100mil SP character for measly 40 bil ISK! 100m SP = 5 years = 666 mISK per month played. You can do that in what, 1 day?

Anonymous said...

Character prices may be marked up, that's for sure. But 3-5x is an exaggeration. At PLEX prices the way they are(500 M), you're spending 6 billion isk a year training a character. Each year, you're training at most 25 million SP(being very generous here). I somehow doubt a 25 million SP character sells for even close to 18 bill. And that's not even taking in to account the amount of ISK you lose out on the account that doesn't generate income.

Anonymous said...

I don't quite understand the "And increase the cost of the pilot 3-5x. No thanks."

1) If pilots sell for the3-5 times production cost, why don't you create 5 or 10 or 50 accounts and sell them? making 0 or dozens of pilots make sense; I can't see how making one is optimal.

2) There is the opportunity cost - whether the opportunity cost of waiting a couple of years is worth the ISK. Will you still be interested in EVE, will CCP survive the Icelandic turmoil and DUST launch so that it matters the end of 2014? Plus CCP is discussing a major nerf to titans next month. A CSM member was even laughing at them in the fanfest video I saw. So in a couple of years titans could be pretty irrelevant. Look at the history. A couple of years ago, the titan doomsday could destroy a fleet of ships in one blast. Next month, a titan may not even be able to kill a new player's ship if the tracking changes go in. Certainly the CSM and CCP want to make titans less useful. The longer you wait, the more risk they become irrelevant at least regarding mega-prestige. Flying a titan now may be far more impressive than in 2-3 years.

So a titan is mainly relevant to the capital ship owners, many/most were funded from the M&S in their alliance who funded the alliance coffers. While far ahead of the M&S, I am not sure if you owning one of the thousands of titans will even be noticed by the masses.

Anonymous said...

Thats absolutely besides the truth. For many of the chars on the bazaar this formula is true:

Amount of skillpoints / skillpoints per month = months train time

Price char < months train time * plex price in ISK

Now the disadvantages is, ofcourse, that no character has exactly the skills you would have trained. The trick is to find a character close enough to make up for a year training time. For example: often chars are sold as Titan sitters. You can get one of these, train the support skills you want, save many months of training for no extra ISK spent.

Gevlon said...

The characters are highly customizable by skills. I would gladly pay 40B for 40M of the RIGHT skills. However the characters I've seen mostly have 10-15/40M useful skills. I mean what the hell does missiles skills worth to a Ragnarok pilot? Or stealth bomber skills?

This is why I can't create 12 accounts and mass produce characters: I would create 12 characters that I would pay 40B but no one else.

For example check this out:
He is for sale 45B. 113M skill points. Can use 12M for a ragnarok. Could use 20M for an Erebus. I can train these numbers for 4-8B myself.

Gevlon said...

Also, there is one more way for me. If I figure out that I have more money than time, I can sell my character, exactly because she is specialist and buy a better one. For example:

WTS 14M pilot, all skills in Ragnarok hull and capital projectile turrets.

Anonymous said...


CCP are not considering it, they are doing it, along with removing drone alloys.

IO said...

"Can use 12M for a ragnarok. "

Not even close! One thing is to be able to sit in Titan, and another thing is to actually fly it.

I calculated at least 35 m SP (plus some 5mil leadership that are very beneficial) from the character you linked that are needed to competently pilot Titan.

Of course this exact specimen has a lot of wasted SP and sub-optimal titan skills, you should be looking at 70-80 m SP.

IO said...

Also: as you mentioned yourself, specialized characters have substantial premium.

I do the other way: I buy half-baked characters and train them for my needs. Thus not paying a premium part, and possibly even getting some nice additional skills if my playing focus will change. Still it takes much less time to finish such char than training your own.

One more note: also include price skillbooks into the consideration!! Titan book is 5bil, capital ships 360m, carrier book (if supercaps) 450mil, doomsday operation 225mil. Some of the chars also come with implants.

antronics said...

..And more:

On one hand, you are chastising the Goons who, as you said it, are making the game great for the players, but bad for CCP as a business.

And at the same time:

On the other hand, chastising pilots who buy PLEX for RL $$ for making the game great for CCP as a business, but bad for the players.

Gevlong, please. Which is it. What faction are you on. What is your why of Eve. What do you want, to rehab the M&S? To scam them? To protect them? To make more isk then them? To be one of them? To fly a Titan with them? Or to fly a Titan against them?

Time is money, friend. What are ye about?

Anonymous said...

Oh, dear Lord, where do we begin. Titans are a freaking complicated and messy issue, that I was really really hoping you would stay away from. Even I have only a partial understanding of all the nonsense, and I see titans every day, have been blapped by titans, and also killed several (by that I mean whored on several titan killmails)

- It's more complicated than 'titans is pwning in itself'. A single titan, alone somewhere is the most vulnerable thing, a killmail waiting to happen. It's blobs of titans, supported by blobs of super carriers, using positioning and tracking fits that are the real pwn isssue.
- It's a issue that is right now as we speak beeing addressed by CCP, who wants to end the blapping for good, and a storm of opinions, proposals, and crying is going on on the forums right now ( I assume you've read them by now, as well as Mitanni's Titanic Imbalance article). Titans may end up being nerfed into oblivion, or being redesigned completely, or who knows what. Like I said, it's a freaking complicated issue.
- Even with the current blap mechanics, it's not that simple. EVE is not about shooting spaceships, there is all this metagame crap that's the real iceberg. Many(all?) alliances that had the biggest supercap blobs have been defeated and ground into ashes and spacedust by strategy and metagame. This would include Raiden/NCdot who despite having the biggest supercap blob in EVE, are currently loosing ground to the CFC.
- In their intended role, titans are/would be mainly used to shoot structures as part of the existing awful sov mechanics, shoot other capitals, and provide strategic logistics by bridging fleets around.
- I know I spoke a lot about nullsec, but I doubt it's the right place for you, and I may be totally wrong about this. Details some other time when it isn't 2:30 AM

Honestly I recommend you forget about this whole titan business. Manipulate markets, play kingmaker, by a shadow power behind thrones, be Helicity Boson and sponsor whatever events, make history and the news by pulling off trillion ISK scams, run complicated projects, do something else with your wast fortune.

Aureon said...

Wandering aimlessly in lowsec attacking random people and finally getting blown up is fun too.

For someone, that's the AIM of the game, and everything else is how to reach it. Many are traders.

For that.. Forget the titan. just.. forget it. It's not a good idea.
Rather, constitute a industrial corp and apply to a nullsec alliance to be their industrial backbone, if you so want. Will be more efficient.

Anonymous said...

I don't think you understand null sec particularly well - even leaving aside titans and your chosen ship path (Basilisks for 0.0? really?)

Most null-sec *corporations* worth joining won't want someone in a titan who doesn't have a serious amount of prior combat experience - you'd be a killmail waiting to happen, in their eyes.

But sure, dreddit might take you on those grounds.

Anonymous said...

Of course, you perhaps unintentionally allude to an answer in your post.

Notoriety in eve is linked to the size of the target you take down, and only tangentially to the size of ship you take down.

Be the tycoon who takes down Pandemic Legion and by most people's measures you would have reached the EVE endgame.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like you need to both expand your range of actual experience within Eve (as opposed to just reading about it), as well as create some intermediate term goals (sooner than the time required to fly a Titan).

Steel H. said...

First, you are tilting at windmills and already known thruths. "EVE is easy if you are not M&S" and "there are lot of M&S in EVE" - yes, I and everyone else told you this even before you started playing. Duh.

- So you want to fly titans to pwn m&s and prove ... whatever. This logic is a non starter in nullsec. Nobody is impressed by titans anymore. They have become too ubiqutous, too common, people can now afford to fly supercaps with shitfits and bad implants, and just not care anymore. 0.0 is a battlehardened, battlescared, uttlerly jaded bunch of people, that have seen and become immune to all forms of bullshit known to man. No one is going to be impressed by yet another 'elite pvp' asshole that gets into a titan to 'pwn'. And hisec doesn't care a bit about titans and what goes on in 0.0.
- You are getting on board the party train just as the party is over, and everyone is getting ready to go home and sell the train for scrap. Supercaps have been the mother of all bad ideeas, they have ruined the game. CCP is looking hard into nerfing them and putting an end to all this pwnage. Many people are coming to the conclusion that the best way to 'fix' titans is to delete them from the game, reimburse the pilots, goodfellas all the devs that were ever involved with titans, salt their hardrives...
- Your options to get into nullsec with a titan are quite limited. About the only alliance that uses titans on the battlefield to blap and pwn are Raiden-NCdot (plus PL). These are the old guard of EVE, the nth reincarnation of the old BoB. They have based their game play exactly on vacuuming up every 1000000 million-billion SP character that has a titan (check out the Spricer corp description). They have been consistently defeated by Goons&co - those fun people who play the game for laughs and 'give no shits' - through better strategy and metagame (and shameless blobbing), and this time it's no different, as you can see by the station names in BKG-Q2 and 30-D5G.
- Supercapital gameplay is God's antechamber of EVE. You have reached the EVE ~endgame~. You log in with your ship safe inside a POS field. You fire up World of Tanks, LoL, BF3 or any other instant PvP game of choice, and wait. At some point, someone in a scout ship says 'hey, I tackled an ibis, lighting a cyno', and you all jump on top of him and 'pwn' him. You go back to WoT/LoL. You rage on your internal forums when your enemies blob, blueball, 10% TiDi, and metagame you to hell and back. You rage on EVE-O and kugu when CCP (and the Mittani) nerfs you toys into oblivion. You unsub.
- 0.0 sov IS boring, and this is not what the m&s say, it's what every nullsec holding alliance says. The Dominon sov mechanics are horrible and universally despised. Boredom is actually an important metagame layer in 0.0, and a considerable strategic advantage is gained by those that can know hoe to endure, manage, and inflict boredom. Also the epic 1000 man battles you read about are actually about 5-10 people that put in superhuman levels of effort, and 1000 people that are just along for the ride. The FC knows all the details, makes all the decisions, barks all the orders into comms, the rest of 250 prople just allign to a broadcasted point and mash F1... I like it a lot, because it's mindless, effortless, and you get lots and lots of killmails, and who doesn't want killmails? The small gang pvp that happens in NPC 0.0, lowsec, and WH (aka aimlessly wondering around blowing/blown up ) is a lot more tactical and interesting, and is basically where actual 'PVP happens' - check out Rooks and Kings videos. Most of these people wouldn't touch 0.0 blow warfare, CTAs, timers, structure grinds, waiting 4 hours on a titan bridge, etc, ect with a 10 foot pole, just ask your friend Jester...

Steel H. said...

So again, ditch this ideea of titans. You have more money then god, and want to have an impact, prove points, pwn the M&S, whatever? Do exactly what you did in WoW: run experiments, projects, finance wars, ganking campaigns, interdictions, or whatever twisted ideea you can come up with. Sow mayhem and chaos, watch what happens, profit. Unlike wow, where only 3 people knew about you, in here you will hit all the people, you will have all of them rage on forums, you will have all of them know your name. You bark at MMO companies to hit players in the fun, and design PvE this and PvP, remove fun&profit from hisec and so forth. Don't, this is a sandbox, you can DO IT YOURSELF, if you know how. You may succeed, or you may fail. Welcome to the game.

Speaking of whitch, soon, a supercap fleet worth of unfun, pwnage, and mayhem is about to descend uppon hisec. You will witness epic whining and howling on forums, untold chaos and destruction, and untold opportunities for profit. Because the Lich King was a pussy, all hail the King of Space, baby!

Anonymous said...

Also, you can now buy an nVidia GTX 560 card for 20 PLEXes.

Anonymous said...

A couple of additional thoughts before you finally get sick of this subject ...

If you want to enter a null-sec alliance, prepare to roll a completely new character and fund it via plex you buy on the open market. Virtually all the big alliances will require a full-API key for all your characters before they let you enter. Which as a side effect will give them all your trading strategies.

Frequent transactions with another toon will be queried - you can roll temporary alts. in the spare slots to funnel isk through, but again this will look suspicious.

Secondly; whilst a few corps have managed to attract a subset of particularly good PVPers, most actions in this game are fairly difficult to signal and most corporations attract and recruit via word of mouth. This is why competent industrialists end up working renter corps located in poor parts of 0.0.

Lastly, another way of making an impact would be to work out solutions to problems like this, and gradually take over a small 0.0 corp and transform it.

Wolf said...

I came, I saw, I laughed. I've read a couple of your other posts and I've got to admit, some of the things you post about sound very similar to a lot of other new EVE players that I've come across. Yet somehow I never tire reading any of it. But here's my .02. :P

By the time you actually have a toon that can effectively fly a titan, you very well may be able buy your way into one. Simply because supercaps aren't the same special ponies that they used to be, even the CSM is arguing for allowing supercarriers to be able to dock in stations. However, I wouldn't count on your wallet as being a guaranteed in on getting your titan. Because even then, alliances still won't want to see a lossmail that expensive on their killboard. Particularly since right now you sound like the type that wouldn't listen to experienced pilots when fitting/flying it because 'you know better' and that you wouldn't be fully committed to a fight because they will take up your entire afternoon. I realize that I probably just seem like some internet know-it-all, but trust me when I say this. You have a lot of learning to do before any respectable alliance would even consider selling you a titan to use in their fleets. Of course, you might just get lucky and find a pilot that just doesn't want his or her titan anymore.

Of course should the day finally come and you get into a titan, you'll realize that the only people who will fellate your new internet penis won't matter, the ones that matter won't care, and the ones that care are only out to get on the killmail. Eventually you'll get bored of paying for a toon that you almost never use and a ship that's a pain in the ass to use when you finally get the chance to. Assuming you ever get to do anything other than bridging blue fleets in it. You also won't want to forget that you're not allowed to dock up. So fuel and fittings will have to be brought out to you when you're safely in a POS that you hopefully won't have to maintain by yourself. The joys of supercap ownership. ;)

Do yourself a favor and find some other part of EVE end-game to occupy yourself with. Because I can assure you that you won't enjoy flying a titan, unless you're the type that gets off on having the one of the most expensive things in a game. If you can't find something else to occupy your time with, then as EVE trolls say... I can has ur stuff plox?

Anonymous said...

Eve is not game, eve is virtual reality. Most players don't even realize how much they are "LARPing" in EVE while "playing" it.

Your approach to the game is like going to fishing in holiday and doing with fishing trawler. Damn! How all the other guys get only fish or two?

Anonymous said...

"I wanted to prove that one can survive in the "harsh" world of EVE. After earning 7B in my very first two months, we can consider it done. The fact that "the last 365 days saw 1.12 million market transactions involving PLEX" means that there are at least 100K M&S in the game (out of 350K) who run out of ISK on the monthly basis due to constantly spending/losing more than they earn, despite it's damn easy to earn money." You're not of average intelligence, Gevlon. Your claim has to be put into context. To test your argument we need a meaningful sample size of average players; not one random possible fluke.

Buggrit said...

Gevlon, for the mindset of Gudfiteslol check OPERATION NEKKAR in evenews (a few down from you). "Some people are in wormhole space to escape the burned in PVP mechanics of k-space and are attractive to the different mechanics which wormhole space offers, the limiting mass factor of wormholes, the sovereignty free systems and last but not least, no local. Others are here only to harvest the resources of wormhole space without contributing anything else to wormhole space. "

"contributing" for them is for you being available and willing to get on a gudfite when they wish it. This is the mentality of the "social pvp" guy you're talking about. Try to understand him so you know what you're dealing with.

As for the endgame - sorry but you're wrong. Owning a titan and being a pilot is nothing, crap, zero, zilch. Becoming leader of an alliance, or making one from scratch, and achieving true power such as the bosses of CFC, PL and other big players have, that is the true endgame. They decide what happens to titan pilots.
Other branches of course are available such as scamming, events, kingmaking and so on.

Peter Petermann said...

to fly a titan you should have the following skills to 5, before you consider jumping into one, even if you could:

the titans skill,
jump drive calibration !!!!!!
jump fuel conservation (ok, you could go by 4 on that, but really 5 is the better choice)
the doomsday skill
the titans weapons skills (including supports for the weapon type)

also shield titans are in need for a boost compared to armor titans for years, that doesn't mean ccp is going to make that happen - currently their more looking into nerfing 'em all.

as for skillpoints, i have a character thats focused on supercapitals, with about 70M sp, only like 6M of those skillpoints are "wasted" sideways to allow blackops.
a pure titan focused one should be arround 55M+ if you leave out the leadership skills that you would need for having it boosting a fleet.

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