Saturday, February 1, 2014

No Goon POCO will ever fall!

I've deleted troll comments in dozens with the title, or its questioned form "have you destroyed any Goon POCO already?" commented to any post I had. The Goons just don't care about this project, that's why the thread about it is just 51 pages long. Their favorite comment is also "how about the POCOs"?

Now look at that! Were't the little bees outplayed? If you check the kill report, you find no Lemmings on it, just Marmites. Let me explain: the highsec Goon pet RvB was commanded (against the countless declarations of their directors that they are here for only a 2 weeks fun), to rejoin the war and defend the reinforced Goon POCOs. And they joined as allies in the Lemmings vs Goons war. But not the Marmite Collective vs Goon war, so they couldn't shoot Marmites. Then the Goons couldn't be bothered to form up, assuming their pets will do the job. But they couldn't, because they weren't in war with Marmite collective. If you check the Zkillboard page of Perimiter , no ship died within +-1 hour of the POCO, so there was no battle. Goons weren't here, RvB couldn't shoot Marmite.

The panicked Goon director Mynnna placed a new POCO on his altcorp (Marmite couldn't shoot that) to salvage what's possible, making things from bad to worse to them.

Why is it a disaster? Because Marmites instantly decced the altcorp, so it can't transfer the POCO. The corp belongs to the 8 men alliance Goon Capital, so anyone can wardec it for mere 50M/week (not 500M/week like GSF or 2x500M/week like RvB) and get Goons, Red and Blue as war targets, because they jump in as allies to save the POCO! So if you are on the highsec PvP scene, this is your moment to farm kills!

And I saved the best for last: since RvB was neutralized by the "Lemmings RF, Marmites finish" trick, Mynnna ordered them to join as allies against Marmite. Again: RvB jumped into a Marmite war. Now, RvB had 35% ISK efficiency against the disorganized, ragtag, few weeks old Darwins Lemmings. You have any idea what will happen with them in the Marmite war?! The only reason Marmite didn't dec them is the cost: 1B/week. Now they got a foreverwar for free.

So, this is happening. Join! As an individual or corp, join the Lemmings. If you are a serious highsec PvP-er, just dec Goon Capital, RF their POCO in Perimiter to show you mean business and Goons and RvB jumps in, providing you 18000 easy war targets!

And don't miss the post on Monday! Just don't!

PS: congratulations to The Marmite Collective for reaching 1.65T kills in January.

30 comments:

Anonymous said...

My comments haven't been "have you killed any goon POCOs yet", mine has been "have you killed them ALL yet". You stated this was your goal. That you will remove all goon owned pocos from highsec.

Also learn to detect sarcasm. Mynnna's "order" was Mynnna trolling the ever-living-crap out of you.

Do you honestly think Mynnna, a man who personally sees your income as pocket change cares about one single POCO, so much so that he "panicked" and dropped one in an alt corp? Do you honestly think that? I mean honestly. I'm asking a question. Do you think that? a yes or no will do.

Also I predict your monday post is one where you talk about Titans meaning more than Rifters. And how this is going to be the "norm" of fighting in the future. And that a T2 ship should be able to fight 3:1 against any T1 ship. And where you talk about Tiericide as some kind of welfare buff for bad players. Amirite?

Gevlon said...

Well, sarcasm works only if it refers to something untrue. If I say "hey I have a torture camp in Guantanamo where I lock up people I don't like", it's sarcasm. If the US president says that, it's a political message because he HAS a torture camp in Guantanamo.

If Mynnna says "I ordered the RvB back" and RvB returns, it's sarcasm.

Yes, he paniced as he didn't see the "RvB can't attack Marmite" trick coming and losing POCOs would be quite painful for them, mostly for propaganda purposes. I mean being beaten by "highsec publords" would hit the very core of Goons.

And no, Titans and Rifters come at Tuesday and it's not at all a big thing, it's an opinion piece. "Big things" are always facts.

Anonymous said...

Hang on. Sarcasm has absolutely NOTHING to do with the truth of something.

He's taunting you. RvB coming back likely had nothing to do with Goons. But them coming back gave him an opportunity to make it look like he ordered them to.. which has had the desired effect as you have posted repeatedly about it.

He's making you look like a prized idiot Gevlon old chum.

But the forum and blog p0rn is still pretty great :) Keep on taking the bait :)

Powers said...

You'll find out that Mynnna will be able to transfer the poco just fine. ;) Works just like the terrible sov mechanics.

Gevlon said...

If he wants to be banned, sure, he can use an exploit. It was explicitly stated that POCOs can't be transferred under war (otherwise no POCOs could be killed, just make another 1 day alt every day)

Anonymous said...

Since BoB was handed to them on a silver platter Goons have mistaken numbers for intelligence. Gevlon, you have really pulled their chain.

Anonymous said...

Keep up the good work !

Anonymous said...

How many POCOs were RF'd? how many were destoryed? How many were captured for Lemmings?

I find it hard to actually see this as any sort of victory. All the POCOs as far as I can tell are still under goon control.

Gevlon said...

What kind of miracle are you expecting to happen? We defeat 18000 people overnight? Step by step. Every little victory brings in more people.

Chris K. said...

The deal for Marmite just keeps getting better and better.

Lucas Kell said...

"If he wants to be banned, sure, he can use an exploit. It was explicitly stated that POCOs can't be transferred under war (otherwise no POCOs could be killed, just make another 1 day alt every day)"
The only rule is that pocos can't be transferred out of a war. They could easily transfer it to another corp in the holding alliance, then drop that corp from the alliance (taking the war with it), then join that corp to goons.

Anonymous said...

Goons are probably shocked someone is trying to play EVE with them, as opposed to using it as a jabber ad on.

Ragelle said...

Regardless of whether you like Goons, Gevlon, or any of the groups involved this project is exactly the kind of project that High Sec players should use against Null powers --- those on the high sec side can jump in or out at will, have no need to worry about logistics (incoming or outgoing), and have nothing to lose of any consequence. And despite what is being said in public constant structure ops are NOT what most RvB players are looking for. Either RvB is effective and defends well (eventually burning out their members if this doesn't end) or they are ineffective defending (in which case it's irrelevant what they do in or out of the war dec). Marmite is extremely experienced at avoiding losses and killing exposed war dec targets -- they have only upside here.

This is an interesting pickle for Goonswarm if Gevlon can keep it up --- it'll be interesting to see their longer term responce --- Goons always fuck up the start of a conflict no matter how small or large.

Gevlon said...

@Lucas: that case it just doesn't make any sense. What do they gain by moving it from one hand to another?

Anonymous said...

Good job! Go get yourself some RvB POCOs too guys!

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon
"that case it just doesn't make any sense. What do they gain by moving it from one hand to another?"
They move it back into the main alliance, so the alt alliance can go back to being dormant until it's needed again. So the "mere 50M/week" gap no longer exists.

Lucas Kell said...

@Ragelle
"this project is exactly the kind of project that High Sec players should use against Null powers"
How so? They are attacking high sec assets that really aren't needed. Pretty much all they are doing is generating some extra content for miniluv. If any real damage was done, goons would simply raise taxes and squeeze high sec PI players.

And no, RvB are not looking for structure ops, but high sec structure ops are a bit different. They are easier to form up for and generate more of a fight due to the sole use of subcaps. As for Marmite, they are experienced at camping stations and stargates. They don't take fights that they stand a chance of losing because of their precious killboards, and that's their downside. They aren't big enough to go up against groups the size of goons and RvB and be able to guarantee fair fights, so they will simply abandon the fight when opposed. This is going to leave the lemmings in a situation where they can RF structures but can't fight the timers, so they do the work but get none of the payoff.

What's most amusing though is Gevlon's absolute disdain for people "lolling about" has led him to create a group like this, which is rapidly evolving into a group that is just "lolling about". While this was gong down yesterday, lemmings were off roaming and trolling around Hek.

Akrasjel Lanate said...

http://pastebin.com/94vMxkN2

Ragelle said...

@Lucas Kell

Having been a part of numerous long campaigns --- any effort whether in high sec or null looks different to the participants on the far side of a couple months. The longer the campaign the more noticeable those effects are. Gevlon will have to demonstrate his effort can last long enough.


As for lolling and RFing without killing the POCO's it largely doesn't matter. Ultimately the value of the POCO's is completely eliminated by constant RFing of the structures. You make money off taxes generated by indy types -- the exact people that will setup elsewhere if constant warfare intrudes on their ability to make a profit.

This kind of basic harassment isn't going to destroy Goonswarm and nobody in their right mind thinks so --- but it amply demonstrates the weakness of a larger power in eve against a smaller one --- something you don't see in null too often.

aynrandsgrannypanties said...

@Ragelle

POCOs continue generating profit for us even when they are in reinforcement.

Rammstein said...

@aynrandsgrannypanties:

from eve-wiki: "A POCO in reinforced mode cannot be accessed or utilized"

The statement by Ragelle was that people would move their PI operations to other systems if they couldn't access their POCO often. Your statement, "POCOs continue generating profit for us even when they are in reinforcement.", does not contradict this statement, and is quite unclear. Who is "us?" Do the POCOs continue generating profit for "us"? even if all the former users of the POCOs move to other POCOs? How?

Lucas Kell said...

@Ragelle
"Having been a part of numerous long campaigns --- any effort whether in high sec or null looks different to the participants on the far side of a couple months. The longer the campaign the more noticeable those effects are. Gevlon will have to demonstrate his effort can last long enough."
It doesn't matter how long it lasts. High sec activity affects nothing in null sec. While the POCOs were being repped operations were continuing in null as most of the people dealing with the high sec stuff always deal with highsec stuff (miniluv) and the rest are alts. POCOs are worth very little, and so even if completely destroyed overnight would have negligible impact. As for longevity, I seriously doubt that a group that like to roam and get kills will be able to put up with reinforcing POCOs then running away for a very long time, especially when they start to realise that all this is so General Lemming can get a weekly pay check.

"As for lolling and RFing without killing the POCO's it largely doesn't matter"
Well that depends on point of view. Gevlon has been against people that lol about and post stupid links and jokes, and now he's paying a group that is doing just that. If I were him, I'd be asking why that is going on when what they should be doing is fulfilling the goals set in the original agreement.

"This kind of basic harassment isn't going to destroy Goonswarm and nobody in their right mind thinks so --- but it amply demonstrates the weakness of a larger power in eve against a smaller one --- something you don't see in null too often."
And what weakness is that? What exactly do you think is happening that displays a weakness? If it's the Jita camp kills, they happen every day anyway. Some people are dumb and lose their stuff. It would be a task to find a single day where no goons have died to a war target prior to the Lemmings campaign, since there are a lot of these groups.
As for the POCOs, the costs are negligible, and they are yet to prove they can do any real damage. The first poco was lost as the goons were as prepped as they could be, and by the time the POCO would have been reached it would have been in hull. Replacing it is more time efficient than repping it from hull. I'd be surprised if the same happened again without a fight, and Marmite aren't willing to fight unless they know the odds are stack well and truly in their favour. Killboard efficiency is apparently very precious to them.

Phelps said...

Gevlon is successfully trolling the goons because the goons now have something to lose.

The only way for the goons to win is to lose.

Lucas Kell said...

@Rammstein
"from eve-wiki: "A POCO in reinforced mode cannot be accessed or utilized"

The statement by Ragelle was that people would move their PI operations to other systems if they couldn't access their POCO often."
I'm not sure if that's still the case. I'm pretty sure since the update, with my high sec alts, I've still received tax and been able to use POCOs while reinforcement timers were ticking.

Also, if it is affected, most people would just choose to hold their PI the duration of the timer or CC launch it, since setting up your PI chain elsewhere is a pain logistically and can cost a fortune. Full PI chains across multiple alts can cost hundreds of millions quite easily.

Anonymous said...

Every POCO still held by goons in one way or another. Sure one was destroyed but immediately replaced. Surely this means that no strategic objectives have been met at all. In 3 whole weeks Lemmings have failed to take a single POCO slot of themselves.

Where are the victories of which you speak?

Gevlon said...

We are constantly growing and our ISK ratio is great, despite we are fighting various pets and mercenaries the Goons are throwing at us. After we overwhelmed them, Goons will be left to fend alone and will lose their POCOs all at once.

Anonymous said...

Yes but if history teaches us anything, ISK ratio means nothing in a war. Absolutely zero. Goons fight wars in a particular way - they grind their enemy into boredom. They set timers for the most terrible times, they hell camp systems for days on end. They blue ball like crazy... their means of fighting (and winning) wars is to attempt to get their enemies not to log in. ISK ratio be damned. You can win the ISK war but fail to beat them. The Mittani has a great essay on the subject in his Sins of a Solar Spy Master series.. It is primarily about fighting a bloc war but it gives an amazing insight into the goon's war mentality.

They fights wars on forums and in the meta game, and if you want to beat them that is where you must fight them.

As for overwhelming their "pets", goon "pets" are not involved here. RvB are a separate entity with a completely different set of motivations. One piece of common ground is that they also do not care about ISK ratio.

If you make this about ISK ratio you most certainly wont achieve your objectives to take down the POCOs. You need to fight dirty and nasty. 3 weeks without a single meaningful victory (i.e not even one single POCO in the hands of Lemmings) is not doing your cause any good.

Gevlon said...

ISK ratio means recruits. "Come and you can farm noobs" is a powerful slogan. I know the Goon strategy and this is why I'm surprised they came to highsec where it doesn't work. They can't outblob us, they can't hellcamp, they can't force us grind structures till we get bored.

The big difference between high and null that in null a guy alone is worthless. A small gang is worthless. You must form a fleet to get anything done, and it's boring.

A highsec POCO can be reinforced by a single AFK player. A single camper can farm Goons and their RvB pets. Goon magic doesn't work in this land. They shouldn't have came here and I send them back where they belong!

Anonymous said...

Again, it has been proven many times that ISK ratio does NOT mean recruits. Or at least, not the kinds of recruits any serious power would be interested in.

"Fun ratio" means recruits, and you are doing a reasonable job selling the fun of essentially unlimited highsec war targets. That plus people being butthurt about goons in general is going to be attractive, but don't fool yourself into thinking the ISK ratio is worth anything good to you as an organization. It simply is not.

You've proven yourself that ANYBODY can have a decent ISK ratio, and it isn't a mark of a good pilot. It isn't a measure of effectiveness, it is just online e-peen.

And they CAN out blob you. If they can put 1000 troops on the field in null, they can do it in highsec if they want to. They've done it before with burn jita. They can't blob you with capitals, but really that is about all they can't do. Once you are in a war dec scenario there is very little difference in terms of what they can do to you (excepting of course standings, lack of bubbles, lack of ease of escalation, but all of these can be worked around).

They can camp you into stations or camp you into systems. Again, during Burn Jita they effectively locked down the most populous system in Eve. Sure a few got through but by and large they managed to lock the system down.

They don't "force people to grind structures until they get bored" - this isn't their approach. They fight "unfun" wars by blobbing, by calling people's credibility into disrepute, by sowing seeds of disruption by dropping agents into enemy corporations, by blueballing. However, they CAN force you into a structure grind. It is quite straight forward for them to let you RF all their POCOs, then rep them back up. They did it in perimeter where you failed to take a single POCO for yourself. What makes you think this wont be normal?

As for the uselessness of the individual - an individual dismantled bob. The uselessness of small gangs - Bombers Bar routinely fucks up strat ops. Nullsec hotdrop fleets are an actual thing.

I appreciate what you are trying to do but your rhetoric alone wont win this war. You fundamentally show no understanding or respect for your enemy and that is why I believe you will fail. I'd love to see you succeed, a highsec forever war for consequences is great content but until you bury your hubris and begin to understand what it is you are fighting, then you are already defeated.

Anonymous said...

POCOs work just fine while in reinforcement mode. The quoted wiki article is wrong. Time spent reinforcing Goon POCOs isn't having any affect on Goon income.

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